Now when we have the new battle engine, the fact that there is no more shield regeneration favors defense, especially LLs.

There has been lots of complaints about LLs being too strong for their price (since they are cheaper than RLs, but with higher values in every other aspect).

Lets take just a single example:

Attacker: 8.000 BCs = converted to metal on a 3:2:1 ratio 1.080.000.000 units of metal (1BC=135.000 metal
Defender: 36.000 LLs = converted to metal on a 3:2:1 ratio 45.900.000 units of meta (1LL=1.275 metal)

As you can see, attackers fleet is 23.5 times more expensive (even bigger if you use a 4:2:1 ratio), but the results are scary. This would usually be a regular raid, but this is what attackers should be willing to risk now:


The attacker has lost a total of 11.130.000 units.
The defender has lost a total of 36.000.000 units.
A debris field containing 2.862.000 units of Metal and 3.816.000 units of Crystal has formed in orbit around The planet.

So the attacker suffers almost 30% of the amount the defender loses. If you consider the fact that 70% of defense recovers, the attacker and the defender lost the same amount, even though attacker spent 23.5 times more on his fleet.

I say we change this, but not too much so it doesn't make a drastic change in game.


If you compare RLs and LLs, you can see that LL's price is 51% of the RL's price, yet LLs have higher Attack and shields.

Rocket Launcher:

Structure points 2.500
Shield Strength 20
Attack Points 80


Light Laser:

Structure points 1.000
Shield Strength 25
Attack Points 100

Since there is no way we can make LLs more expensive because it would influence the rankings, I asked Zorg in chat to run some test, and indeed, he agrees that LLs need a little tweaking, so he told me to write this suggestion thread.

After some test he made the results said it would be fair to lower LLs attacking points to 65, but since it would be a big change, we agreed it should be 70. The simulations are valid and Zorg can confirm it.

18/06/2011 05:46:09 ‹Zorg› you may use The break points i mentioned if you like
18/06/2011 05:46:13 ‹Zorg› they are tested and valid
18/06/2011 05:47:47 ‹Zorg› with weapons 70, The no loss break point is 15 to 1
18/06/2011 05:48:05 ‹Zorg› and ll still stronger than RL
18/06/2011 05:48:33 ‹Zorg› we could try this tweak first on x-treme as a start


If you don't feel the same way I do, feel free to share your opinion, but let's not turn this into a debate on how RIPs beat every defense because they beat every ship too. And the new battle engine affected RIPs.
Too bad it affected this too

Maybe I should add that Zorg doesn't like the idea of adjusting both RLs and LLs which i proposed (I though RLs should be a bit stronger, and LLs a bit weaker), so try to refrain from sharing similar ideas.

I agree that LL should be dumbed down a bit. People can spam LL faster then a fleeter can get ships, so it gives the defender the upper hand.

Agreed, LL's are overpowered.

KarrothMelu wrote:Agreed, LL's are overpowered.

^^^^THAT^^^^

Beta already runs on Weapons 70 for LLs which seem to be a nice break point after lots of tests I did since The brought this up.

I will be reading up again all threads related to defenses and LL in the forthcoming days and will conduct more testing to see which would be an acceptable value. This will be helpful in providing a healthy report to the dev team.

I would personally also be in favor of laser tech to play a role like plasma tech now plays for Bomber and PC. Laser Technology-upgrades do nothing after unlocking the Battlecruiser at level 12. Therefore we could add a 8-10% bonus to weapons (or +5% to weapons, +5% to shields or something along these lines) for upgrades after lvl 12 (to Heavy Laser as well with proper tweak there if needed). Laser tech is cheaper than armor tech, so it would be a good strategy for a turtle. Ultimately, you won't be able to get the efficiency you get from LLs as they are now, but you will get an option to put focus there if this suits your playing style.

Would the laser tech increase strength of just LLs and HLs, or would it affect some ships too (like BCs since they require Laser tech 12)?

I think that is a great idea zorg. so many of the techs are obsolete as soon as certain things are unlocked. would be great to incorporate them more in tech research. The also has a good question.

The wrote:Would the laser tech increase strength of just LLs and HLs, or would it affect some ships too (like BCs since they require Laser tech 12)?

We can examine this at a latter day. One tweak at a time.

The wrote:Now when we have the new battle engine, the fact that there is no more shield regeneration favors defense, especially LLs.

The new battle engine eliminates shield regeneration between RF FIRINGS, does it not? Since LLs do not have RF against anything but probes, but receive RF from RIPs especially, the new engine should in fact decrease their effectiveness, not increase it.

I would also note that decreasing LL strength could have the unintended consequence of favoring the stronger, more established players vs. new players. The stonger fleeters have the ability to crack any shell anyone can build anyway, and often knock players down who build too much defense for their (the fleeter's) liking anyway before the shell becomes unbeatable, but the power of the LL allows new players to at least establish sufficient defensive strength to protect their over night resources from raiding.

The wrote:...And the new battle engine affected RIPs...

This is off-topic but you did introduce it, so I will respond to it. The new battle engine actually made RIPs more effective against BC. 1K BC used to be able to survive unscathed against 1 RIP, but now they take significant losses. I would also have expected RIPs to be dramatically more effective against LLs given the 200x RF, but the few sims I did surprisingly did not confirm this.

I also said this

The wrote: but let's not turn this into a debate on how RIPs beat every defense because they beat every ship too.

RIPs may now be more effective against BCs, but LGs are more effective against RIPs.

Stick to the topic please.

SpacemanSpiff wrote:I would also note that decreasing LL strength could have the unintended consequence of favoring the stronger, more established players vs. new players. The stonger fleeters have the ability to crack any shell anyone can build anyway, and often knock players down who build too much defense for their (the fleeter's) liking anyway before the shell becomes unbeatable, but the power of the LL allows new players to at least establish sufficient defensive strength to protect their over night resources from raiding.

Did you even look at the example? The attackers fleet is 23.5 times more expensive
If someone who invested 23.5 times more resources in his fleet shouldn't be able to attack someone with 23.5 times cheaper defense, I see no point in playing such a game...

And it will still protect the overnight production since no one will launch that big of a fleet for so few resources produced over night since the deuterium consumption would be higher then the spoils.