ista's solution +1
seems the only logical idea offered. those against change are missing the point i think. a player wh can build 60k probes will starve out new players who need the easier inactive targets with no def. if you can raid in 10 seconds compared to their 15-20 minutes then i think it should be obvious why probe raiding is a problem. if i were to use probes for raiding then no-one else would have anything to raid. i can empty a galaxy in a day with time left over, if i did that 10 time faster, well you do the math....

Cokey Smurf wrote:ista's solution +1
seems the only logical idea offered. those against change are missing the point i think. a player wh can build 60k probes will starve out new players who need the easier inactive targets with no def. if you can raid in 10 seconds compared to their 15-20 minutes then i think it should be obvious why probe raiding is a problem. if i were to use probes for raiding then no-one else would have anything to raid. i can empty a galaxy in a day with time left over, if i did that 10 time faster, well you do the math....

ahhh... I see now more clearly... compromise..put a Number Limit on amount of probes allowed to attack alone..
say maybe 5k... that way legitimate uses for Probes remain..yet takes the Probe Raiding tactic out of the Game. just a thought.

Hatter wrote:

Cokey Smurf wrote:ista's solution +1
seems the only logical idea offered. those against change are missing the point i think. a player wh can build 60k probes will starve out new players who need the easier inactive targets with no def. if you can raid in 10 seconds compared to their 15-20 minutes then i think it should be obvious why probe raiding is a problem. if i were to use probes for raiding then no-one else would have anything to raid. i can empty a galaxy in a day with time left over, if i did that 10 time faster, well you do the math....

ahhh... I see now more clearly... compromise..put a Number Limit on amount of probes allowed to attack alone..
say maybe 5k... that way legitimate uses for Probes remain..yet takes the Probe Raiding tactic out of the Game. just a thought.

this could cause a problem for some even me when hitting a large fleet that is of certain composition i could use up to 100k probes as fodder to drop my losses i am not a probe raider nor do i agree with it so if the argo capasity and deut cost are at 0 then they can be used for ms and for fodder but not raiding as what was said befor

I agree with you Chuck... just thought maybe this Idea would make everyone Happy.
The limit I suggested was for Probe Only Attacks without taking Probes away from us as Fodder Fleet (while I prefer LF's) or MS fodder.
so to clarify a little... if a Player was to launch a Probe Only attack..maybe limit the number allowed.. or adjust Probes Stats where they cannot pick up Cargo..only carry fuel to reach mission. I hope this works out for all concerned. I will leave the discussions to ones who care more than I do.

lol all i care about it is i want my fodder and ms other than that i could care less lol and i use probes for fodder because a) they take more rf and b) they do not slow travel time

Torgard wrote:I do not agree that Probes should not be allowed to be used as part of an attack. The 2 options you give Zorg eliminates the ability to use Probes for anything except for probing.

not to bash you tor cause many think like this...

but stop it..Zorg wants to make sure a ship designed for 1 thing is only used for that?

the quickness of MS is simple to over come without probes since most that fleet can do a simple lanx hit so making sure some BS a LF or EC could arrive at same time (*edited for chuck*) as defending MS fleet should not be an issue.


for most part i see people complaining that this fix of making sure espi ships can not be included in an attack are mad cause if this is fixed the way it should have been years ago..then they can not cheat the battle engines and the way Rips and all other capital ships fire on stacks till they are gone in 1 round.

once that issue is resolved totally people will want this probe for fodder in place.We all know the system is not perfect and can be seen in every battle.we are meant to be brain washed that BE is all random in what it fires upon 1st but history shows that theory to be wrong(and why everyone wants probes to be included as damage absorbers).

I'll leave that issue for another topic but my vote would be for ista's idea and mere fact many fleet save by attack with probes in their fleet.

to clear up the fodder issue though is simple enough..remove rapid fire of everything against probes..this is how the battle engines are 'tricked' into blowing millions and in some cases billions of dmg on a stack of probes leaving the rest of the ships untouched.there is no reason for their to be rapid fire against a ship that has no attack power anyhow.

Following is an example of how a battle engine in speed can be tricked


Attacker
Weapons: 205 % Shields: 205 % Armor: 205 %
Type Recycler B.Cruiser E.Cargo
Number 1 5.500 2
Weapon 3 2.294 16
Shield 26 1.114 162
Armor 4.350 20.300 870.000

Defender
Weapons: 190 % Shields: 180 % Armor: 190 %
Type R.Launcher Light Lsr Heavy Lsr Gauss C. Ion C. Plasma C. Small S.D. Large S.D.
Number 1.878 86 1.262 85 229 80 1 1
Weapon 209 225 682 2.839 396 7.569 0 0
Shield 59 65 235 470 1.582 941 5.936 31.920
Armor 725 290 1.885 8.700 2.175 29.000 5.800 29.000

The attacking fleet fires 1 times for a total of 12.616.485 points of damage on the defender. The defender shields absorb 898.391 points of damage.
The defensive fleet fires back 1 times for a total of 2.209.050 points of damage against the attacker. The attacker shields absorb 2.208.196 points of damage.

Attacker
Weapons: 205 % Shields: 205 % Armor: 205 %
Type Recycler B.Cruiser E.Cargo
Number 1 5.500 2
Weapon 3 2.395 13
Shield 0 638 0
Armor 4.350 20.300 870.000

Defender
Weapons: 190 % Shields: 180 % Armor: 190 %
Type Gauss C. Ion C. Plasma C. Small S.D. Large S.D.
Number 56 29 73 1 1
Weapon 3.062 409 9.222 0 0
Shield 0 0 0 2.777 25.194
Armor 8.700 2.175 29.000 5.800 29.000

The attacking fleet fires 1 times for a total of 13.174.729 points of damage on the defender. The defender shields absorb 27.971 points of damage.
The defensive fleet fires back 1 times for a total of 856.558 points of damage against the attacker. The attacker shields absorb 856.091 points of damage.

Attacker
Weapons: 205 % Shields: 205 % Armor: 205 %
Type Recycler B.Cruiser E.Cargo
Number 1 5.500 2
Weapon 3 1.949 13
Shield 0 471 0
Armor 4.350 20.300 870.000

Defender ]
Weapons: 190 % Shields: 180 % Armor: 190 %
Destroyed!
The attacker has won the battle !
You receive 2.575.793 units of Metal, 1.303.203 units of Crystal and 529.424 units of Deuterium.
The attacker has lost a total of 0 units.
The defender has lost a total of 6.506.000 units.
A debris field containing 0 units of Metal and 0 units of Crystal has formed in orbit around the planet.

nothing in this battle has rapid fire of anything in this attack...

therefore the battle engine will 'randomly' focus on the largest stack...

therefore the 1 recycler used to control fuel cost of a launch will survive EVERYTIME...(by the way recs in attacks is no worse than probes but due to FS issues hard to fix)..

since everything and its brother has rapid fire of probes Round 1 of every single battle 'randomly' focuses ALL the fire power unto the probe stacks, mean while in round 1 the ships hiding behind the way of probe fodder takes out all the ships it should.

you started something awhile ago that should have been carried further when you made plasma cannons a royal pain in the @ss and should have trickled that down even further than PC's.

-Death- wrote:

Torgard wrote:I do not agree that Probes should not be allowed to be used as part of an attack. The 2 options you give Zorg eliminates the ability to use Probes for anything except for probing.

not to bash you tor cause many think like this...

but stop it..Zorg wants to make sure a ship designed for 1 thing is only used for that?

the quickness of MS is simple to over come without probes since most that fleet can do a simple lanx hit so making sure some BS a LF or EC could arrive at same time should not be an issue.


for most part i see people complaining that this fix of making sure espi ships can not be included in an attack are mad cause if this is fixed the way it should have been years ago..then they can not cheat the battle engines and the way Rips and all other capital ships fire on stacks till they are gone in 1 round.

once that issue is resolved totally people will want this probe for fodder in place.We all know the system is not perfect and can be seen in every battle.we are meant to be brain washed that BE is all random in what it fires upon 1st but history shows that theory to be wrong(and why everyone wants probes to be included as damage absorbers).

I'll leave that issue for another topic but my vote would be for ista's idea and mere fact many fleet save by attack with probes in their fleet.

to clear up the fodder issue though is simple enough..remove rapid fire of everything against probes..this is how the battle engines are 'tricked' into blowing millions and in some cases billions of dmg on a stack of probes leaving the rest of the ships untouched.there is no reason for their to be rapid fire against a ship that has no attack power anyhow.

Following is an example of how a battle engine in speed can be tricked


Attacker
Weapons: 205 % Shields: 205 % Armor: 205 %
Type Recycler B.Cruiser E.Cargo
Number 1 5.500 2
Weapon 3 2.294 16
Shield 26 1.114 162
Armor 4.350 20.300 870.000

Defender
Weapons: 190 % Shields: 180 % Armor: 190 %
Type R.Launcher Light Lsr Heavy Lsr Gauss C. Ion C. Plasma C. Small S.D. Large S.D.
Number 1.878 86 1.262 85 229 80 1 1
Weapon 209 225 682 2.839 396 7.569 0 0
Shield 59 65 235 470 1.582 941 5.936 31.920
Armor 725 290 1.885 8.700 2.175 29.000 5.800 29.000

The attacking fleet fires 1 times for a total of 12.616.485 points of damage on the defender. The defender shields absorb 898.391 points of damage.
The defensive fleet fires back 1 times for a total of 2.209.050 points of damage against the attacker. The attacker shields absorb 2.208.196 points of damage.

Attacker
Weapons: 205 % Shields: 205 % Armor: 205 %
Type Recycler B.Cruiser E.Cargo
Number 1 5.500 2
Weapon 3 2.395 13
Shield 0 638 0
Armor 4.350 20.300 870.000

Defender
Weapons: 190 % Shields: 180 % Armor: 190 %
Type Gauss C. Ion C. Plasma C. Small S.D. Large S.D.
Number 56 29 73 1 1
Weapon 3.062 409 9.222 0 0
Shield 0 0 0 2.777 25.194
Armor 8.700 2.175 29.000 5.800 29.000

The attacking fleet fires 1 times for a total of 13.174.729 points of damage on the defender. The defender shields absorb 27.971 points of damage.
The defensive fleet fires back 1 times for a total of 856.558 points of damage against the attacker. The attacker shields absorb 856.091 points of damage.

Attacker
Weapons: 205 % Shields: 205 % Armor: 205 %
Type Recycler B.Cruiser E.Cargo
Number 1 5.500 2
Weapon 3 1.949 13
Shield 0 471 0
Armor 4.350 20.300 870.000

Defender ]
Weapons: 190 % Shields: 180 % Armor: 190 %
Destroyed!
The attacker has won the battle !
You receive 2.575.793 units of Metal, 1.303.203 units of Crystal and 529.424 units of Deuterium.
The attacker has lost a total of 0 units.
The defender has lost a total of 6.506.000 units.
A debris field containing 0 units of Metal and 0 units of Crystal has formed in orbit around the planet.

nothing in this battle has rapid fire of anything in this attack...

therefore the battle engine will 'randomly' focus on the largest stack...

therefore the 1 recycler used to control fuel cost of a launch will survive EVERYTIME...(by the way recs in attacks is no worse than probes but due to FS issues hard to fix)..

since everything and its brother has rapid fire of probes Round 1 of every single battle 'randomly' focuses ALL the fire power unto the probe stacks, mean while in round 1 the ships hiding behind the way of probe fodder takes out all the ships it should.

you started something awhile ago that should have been carried further when you made plasma cannons a royal pain in the @ss and should have trickled that down even further than PC's.

i may have mis read about your ms theory but you said have the bs arrive the same time as the roamer same as a lanx if that is what you said this does not work you can not laumch an attack or transfer where no planit is there unless i have missed something because i have tried this

your defending fleet used to repel the probe attack still has to be sent after the colony ..unless someone knows how to launch a defending fleet same time they launch a colony and not telling me!!

ahh ok i get it now lol uh duhhhh i had a moment lol

Just something for you guys to think about, everyone knows by now ZE isn't the first game of it's kind and probe raiding has been used on and off for 13 years in this kind of game.

Have the others felt the need to reduce the probes to nothing more than glorified sats? No, because it's the not the end of the friggin world, building enough probes to actually make it a decent raiding fleet takes too much effort, and they are too susceptible to suicide attacks. Honestly, the game would be fine and continue to be fine if you just left the probes unchanged, but if you really feel you must, do it carefully.