LLs weapons will be reduced to 70 from 100 in 10 days in all universes. (The final adjustment may be +-5 eventually and it will depend on discussion on this thread.)
The upcoming tweak is now displayed across all universe defense building page.
LLs will still be stronger than supposed but will not be overpowered.
Beta Simulator and Engine run with this tweak already so members of the Beta Crew are requested to have their feedback from testing in this thread.
Re: [Under Implementation] LLs need tweaking
#12This is a simple comparison between BS vs LL with wsa 0 0 0 on both sides.
at LLs attack points at 70 the following are the costs.
20.000 LL costs 15.000.000 5.000.000 1.000.000
2.000 BC costs 60.000.000 80.000.000 30.000.000
and both generates with a random factor 1,428,000 attack points.
but that is hardly a comparison. you also need to consider shields.
to match the 2000 BC shields you need 32.000 LLs that would cost you 24,000,000 8,000,000 1,600,000
which is still significantly low.
so i dont think from turtles side the changes are still at advantage.
now about the RL comparison.
the effective cost of RL is still 1.7 times more than that off LLs and the attack point reduction still makes it alot less effective the point is the low shield on RLs still makes it the prime candidate for fodder defense rather making it a primary defense. the reasoning behind it was not accurate in my opinion. even with the attack point reduction i do not think RL is yet a cost effective defense option more than LLs.
the reason why i am explaining all that is that to lessen the LLs to give users the option to choose RL at a more effective manner is flawed. the reduction of LL attack point from 100 to 70 would only make it less effective against the primary defense bashing fleet such as RIPs. to make it more effective you need to add the discussed laser tech upgrade ad-ons in game. but mind it let it not cross the previously 100 attack power for LLs.
for each level up it should add just enough to make it close to 100 but never exceed it. Lets have 90 as max
so i propose the following formula.
LL attack power = 70+ [(Laser tech level) max 20]
(you can discuss how the equation will add.)
this way you actually have a good way to provide interest for researches.
at LLs attack points at 70 the following are the costs.
20.000 LL costs 15.000.000 5.000.000 1.000.000
2.000 BC costs 60.000.000 80.000.000 30.000.000
and both generates with a random factor 1,428,000 attack points.
but that is hardly a comparison. you also need to consider shields.
to match the 2000 BC shields you need 32.000 LLs that would cost you 24,000,000 8,000,000 1,600,000
which is still significantly low.
so i dont think from turtles side the changes are still at advantage.
now about the RL comparison.
the effective cost of RL is still 1.7 times more than that off LLs and the attack point reduction still makes it alot less effective the point is the low shield on RLs still makes it the prime candidate for fodder defense rather making it a primary defense. the reasoning behind it was not accurate in my opinion. even with the attack point reduction i do not think RL is yet a cost effective defense option more than LLs.
the reason why i am explaining all that is that to lessen the LLs to give users the option to choose RL at a more effective manner is flawed. the reduction of LL attack point from 100 to 70 would only make it less effective against the primary defense bashing fleet such as RIPs. to make it more effective you need to add the discussed laser tech upgrade ad-ons in game. but mind it let it not cross the previously 100 attack power for LLs.
for each level up it should add just enough to make it close to 100 but never exceed it. Lets have 90 as max
so i propose the following formula.
LL attack power = 70+ [(Laser tech level) max 20]
(you can discuss how the equation will add.)
this way you actually have a good way to provide interest for researches.
Barbaric nomad causing P-A-I-N.
Re: [Under Implementation] LLs need tweaking
#14I'm still new here so forgive me for any noob observations but I feel I must point out something I thought to be obvious.
Defences can never be accurately compared to ships, they have two completely different objectives with completely different strengths and weaknesses. One could even argue ships don't cost resources they make resources. To compare the two would require a mountain of statistical data above and beyond the value of collecting it.
Defences can however be compared amongst themselves and when doing so it becomes obvious LL are well and truly the best defence, to concentrate on any other would be somewhat a waste. Does this mean LL are overpowered or too cheap? Possibly or perhaps the other defenses are too weak. The only way I can see to determine which, is to let experience tell, this I'm short on so others need to answer this question,
Is this game dominated by Turtles (If so weaken the LL), Fleeters (If so strengthen the other defences) or a combination of both? If the last then maybe leave as is or tweak minimally as this I would think would be the ultimate goal of any good game.
Defences can never be accurately compared to ships, they have two completely different objectives with completely different strengths and weaknesses. One could even argue ships don't cost resources they make resources. To compare the two would require a mountain of statistical data above and beyond the value of collecting it.
Defences can however be compared amongst themselves and when doing so it becomes obvious LL are well and truly the best defence, to concentrate on any other would be somewhat a waste. Does this mean LL are overpowered or too cheap? Possibly or perhaps the other defenses are too weak. The only way I can see to determine which, is to let experience tell, this I'm short on so others need to answer this question,
Is this game dominated by Turtles (If so weaken the LL), Fleeters (If so strengthen the other defences) or a combination of both? If the last then maybe leave as is or tweak minimally as this I would think would be the ultimate goal of any good game.
Re: [Under Implementation] LLs need tweaking
#15The fact of the matter is more that LL's are too cheap for their power. PC's are good, but they're just way too expensive and take too long to construct to be practical (just an example). And I like your point that ships and defenses are different, because they are, but it's their balance that's important to the game. Anywho, back on topic, I approve of the tweaking, not that it matters because it's already being implemented.
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Re: [Under Implementation] LLs need tweaking
#16There's also an enormous downside to this for turtle players...as this'll make most of us extremely vulnerable until we can build much more plasma cannons - which will take quite a while. This really screws all of us unless something could assist us in place of the downgrade. The research really needs to count here...
I'm not saying it's a bad idea, because LL's are overpowering for their cost. But why not up the cost instead of putting other players in jeopardy until they can find another solution to protect themselves? Or have the research tweaked at the same time (although I know Zorg likes to do one tweak at a time).
It's not like turtles can go back and redo all their defenses. I spent my resources on many LL's because I knew it'd work. Why not just up the cost to match their strength?
I'm not saying it's a bad idea, because LL's are overpowering for their cost. But why not up the cost instead of putting other players in jeopardy until they can find another solution to protect themselves? Or have the research tweaked at the same time (although I know Zorg likes to do one tweak at a time).
It's not like turtles can go back and redo all their defenses. I spent my resources on many LL's because I knew it'd work. Why not just up the cost to match their strength?
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Re: [Under Implementation] LLs need tweaking
#17Wheres your data to support that claim? If that is the case then Turtles must rule Zorg Yes?pupairo12 wrote:The fact of the matter is more that LL's are too cheap for their power.
Once again I'm not saying that the tweak is right or wrong I'm just saying there has been no evidence put forward to support a downgrade of LL.
Re: [Under Implementation] LLs need tweaking
#18This change has been promoted for 2 main reasons:
1.LLs are overpowered in compare to other defenses.
2.The update of battle engine will make turtling a more viable option (although some turtles already exist). If we don't tweak LLs, then all turtles will have a big common point: LLs in huge amounts.
This is in fact a small tweak. Even if we speak for a player who has invested a lot in LLs. I backup this again with #2; the new engine makes such a player a less attractive target (the reason is simple: more losses for everyone while defenses regenerate). Even after the tweak is applied, turtles will still seem less attractive while the 10 days prenotice should be enough for anyone who runs primarily LLs to switch to something more balanced.
Slightly off topic, any tweaks to the game, are applied only because of imbalance. This is also why we got few tweaks; We won't apply new data (except if we build a new universe), we will only make sure the game is balanced.
LL's has been an unbalancing issue with much of the playerbase supporting for a change and this is the best opportunity to implement it without causing issues.
It sounds worse than it is, really. This tweak is real value. Even if you are among the ones that run big LL numbers, I ask you to check with the updated engine, the old engine and the updated engine with new value. Here are all of them:
Updated Engine with Weapons 100: Use the one of your universe
Updated engine with Weapons 70: http://beta.zorgempire.net/simulator.php
Old Engine with weapons 100: http://beta.zorgempire.net/simulator2.php
If you run some tests, you will realize why you should not complain at all.
1.LLs are overpowered in compare to other defenses.
2.The update of battle engine will make turtling a more viable option (although some turtles already exist). If we don't tweak LLs, then all turtles will have a big common point: LLs in huge amounts.
This is in fact a small tweak. Even if we speak for a player who has invested a lot in LLs. I backup this again with #2; the new engine makes such a player a less attractive target (the reason is simple: more losses for everyone while defenses regenerate). Even after the tweak is applied, turtles will still seem less attractive while the 10 days prenotice should be enough for anyone who runs primarily LLs to switch to something more balanced.
Slightly off topic, any tweaks to the game, are applied only because of imbalance. This is also why we got few tweaks; We won't apply new data (except if we build a new universe), we will only make sure the game is balanced.
LL's has been an unbalancing issue with much of the playerbase supporting for a change and this is the best opportunity to implement it without causing issues.
It sounds worse than it is, really. This tweak is real value. Even if you are among the ones that run big LL numbers, I ask you to check with the updated engine, the old engine and the updated engine with new value. Here are all of them:
Updated Engine with Weapons 100: Use the one of your universe
Updated engine with Weapons 70: http://beta.zorgempire.net/simulator.php
Old Engine with weapons 100: http://beta.zorgempire.net/simulator2.php
If you run some tests, you will realize why you should not complain at all.
Re: [Under Implementation] LLs need tweaking
#19/me sees the links.
Ah. Well. I totally agree now.
Ah. Well. I totally agree now.
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__________________A tongue of silver is worth plenty in gold._________________
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