Zorg Empire

This took some time but also wanted to see all the numbers myself. (this due to the new defence topic that was being talked about in game suggestions)
All cost values are in METAL. (crystal=1.5METAL, Deut=3METAL).
DEFENCE------COST---------struct---------shield---------attack
RL--------------2.500---------2.500------------20-------------80------200RF from RIP
LL--------------1.275---------1.000------------25------------100------200RF from RIP
HL--------------7.550---------6.500----------100------------250------100RF from RIP
IONS-----------10.000--------7.500----------500------------150------100RF from RIP
GAUS----------45.000-------30.000----------200---------1.100------50RF from RIP
PC------------200.000------100.000---------300---------3.000--------0RF from RIP
RIP-----------13,25mil-------7,5mil------50.000------200.000--------0RF from RIP

Compared to PC:
-----------------------Cost ratio---------------struct--------------------shield-----------------attack
RL-----------------------90x--------------------225.000-----------------1.800-----------------7.200-------200RF from RIP
LL-----------------------156,9x----------------156.900-----------------3.923-----------------15.690------200RF from RIP
HL-----------------------26,5x-----------------172.250-----------------2.650-----------------6.625-------100RF from RIP
IONS--------------------20x--------------------150.000----------------10.000-----------------3.000-------100RF from RIP
GAUS-------------------4,4x-------------------132.000-------------------880-----------------4.840---------50RF from RIP
PC----------------------1-----------------------100.000-------------------300-----------------3.000----------0RF from RIP

Funny, ions do the same amount of dmg as PC at same costs big with much better shield and struct.

Compared to 1.000 RIPS
5.000.000m +2.500.000c +1.500.000d = 13.250.000m (* 1000 = 13,250bil!)
-------------------Cost ratio-------------------struct--------------------shield------------------attack
RL-----------------5.300.000x----------------13.250.000.000---------106.000.000---------424.000.000---------200RF from RIP
LL----------------10.392.159x----------------10.392.159.000---------259.803.975------1.039.215.900---------200RF from RIP
HL-----------------1.754.966x----------------11.407.279.000---------175.496.600--------438.741.500---------100RF from RIP
IONS---------------1.325.000x-----------------9.937.500.000---------662.500.000--------198.750.000---------100RF from RIP
GAUS----------------294.444x-----------------8.833.320.000-----------58.888.800--------323.888.400---------50RF from RIP
PC---------------------66.250x-----------------6.625.000.000-----------19.875.000--------198.750.000---------0RF from RIP
RIP----------------------1.000x-----------------7.500.000.000-----------50.000.000--------200.000.000---------0RF from RIP

Yes people you can build 10.4mil LL for the price of 1k Rips ......
just enjoy entering 1000 in the build que for 10.392 times ..... LOL!

I would like to know of some things here.
* Is is true damage is just added up? (like the LL get 16.070 dmg compared to 3k of 1 PC).
If so it seems the bigger defences cause less dmg ect.... only advantage is the less RF...

* Same for shielding is this just a simple + + + calculation.

* Also does shielding apply to all ships+defences and stuff? (like 1 big number shield = ...).
I always found it strange when you send 1LC and 1k BS the LC suddently is shielded by so much shielding points.
If thats how it works. (Not very realistic huh )

SIMS (all tech levels 17):
1000RIPS(13,250bil cost) vs (13,250bil cost defences):
RL----------5.300.000x-----------= 380-600Rips remain old engine: mostly DK (very small chance RL wins with 1.5mil RL remain).
LL----------10.392.159x----------= LL flawless wins (sometime loose 1mil LL)
HL----------1.754.966x-----------= 50/50 on who winsold engine: DK, 1.1mil HL, HL flawless, 280k HL, (random but rips never win)
IONS--------1.325.000x-----------= IONS always flawless win (always takes 3 rounds or more)
GAUS---------294.444x-----------= +/-600rips old engine:DK,DK,DK,DK,190rips,DK,198rips, DK,90rips,DK,DK,131Rips
PC--------------66.250x-----------= +/-550rips old engine: 447Rips,410rips,158rips,349rips,624rips,358rips,545rips
RIP---------------1.000x-----------= due to randoms usally 1 wins with 100..300rips remaining.
DK=double knockout

Flawless DEFENCE vs 1000RIPS (13.250bil Metal cost):
RL----------14.000.000x--------= 35.000.000.000 Metal
LL----------10.300.000x--------= 13.132.500.000 Metal (very small chance to loose 1mil LL seen only once.....)
HL-----------2.600.000x--------= 19.530.000.000 Metal
IONS-----------625.000x--------= 6.250.000.000 Metal : will take many rounds,0 loss ions, all rips go down
GAUS-------1.200.000x---------= 54.000.000.000 Metal
PC------------800.000x----------= 160.000.000.000 Metal
RIP-------------4500x------------= 59.625.000.000 Metal
I do like to add here that the LL will produce more dmg output in cost to a point where you have enough ions, so the LL work better in the scare tactics at lower cost.
example:
only 3bil in construction costs vs 1.000 rips:
300.000 ions : ions will only kill 0...10 rips.
2.352.941LL : will destroy 200 to 300 rips.
so the ions will only start to be better somewhere after 500.000 of them

this means as long as you cannot affort to build say 600k ions quickly its better to start out with a few million LL.


Don't really get RF sometimes its 18vs LL and all LL go down other times RF is 187 and all LL survive.......



When I get more time I'll add some mix defences costs, but don't think it will get better than the ions.
However getting that much cystal will be an issue

I do't believe shielding is just added up. A while back when gumppy had his fleet on the scoreboard I ran some sims to see how many ions would absorb all damage. 1 mil did over half, but it took like 8 mil to absorb all.

The math seems correct, however, like I said before, 7.85 mil LL take out 1k RIPs no problem. 5 mil ends with a DK. For the price of half the RIPs sent, you can get a DK from nothing but LL. Nevermind the fact that just building one of each defense will, most likely, drop the effect of the RIPs drastically.

Honestly, the LL are bar-none THE most overpowered thing in the game. However, since they can't move, I think maybe that is intended.

If you're not getting the same results, then I'm not sure what is up with the Combat Simulator. I've simmed with 17 Techs, with 1k RIPs vs the 7.85mil LL about 20 times now and every time it is a first round, no loss for the LL.

I believe the problem stems from having the fleet act as a single unit, rather than have each unit being calculated separately. Why would the shields from a LC cover over a LF? Unless there was a giant shield generator, it makes no sense and, to me, just causes the combat to be random and just plain dumb.

Went ahead and did a few simulations and what not, and it seems that damage is added. However, the shield values are WAY off. In the situation of 1 RIP vs 1k Ions, the Ions were absorbing 18 mil MORE damage than they had in actual shielding, so I'm not sure wtf is going on there.

shields scale with rapid fire shots weird, for each extra shot against a unit the shields refresh, so firing twice at an ion cannon would make its shields double, but only for that shot, other damage ignores it

Shandris wrote:shields scale with rapid fire shots weird, for each extra shot against a unit the shields refresh, so firing twice at an ion cannon would make its shields double, but only for that shot, other damage ignores it

Hm...That makes sense. However, not very practical.

I was under the impression shields were supposed to refresh each ROUND. Not each shot fired.

That's why Defense is so OP, then o.O

well think about it, if they didnt refresh, the unshielded damage from some rapid fires would be insane, would completely wipe everything out

Shandris wrote:well think about it, if they didnt refresh, the unshielded damage from some rapid fires would be insane, would completely wipe everything out

It wouldn't if ships weren't calculated as a single unit.

If they were calculated separately, as they should be, then a single RIP can only take out a max of 200 LL (The RF value) a turn. Since it would fire on a LL, destroy it, roll for RF, fire on another (If RF was successful), destroy it, and keep doing that until RF ran out or was unsuccessful. It keeps RIPs from wtfpwning everything as it does now and allows the cheaper ships with RF to actually be useful (Since 10 Bombers could take out as much as a single RIP, and you can spam Bombers a bit easier than a RIP). Then, shields could be refreshed at the end of each turn as they should be and RIPs wouldn't be the best thing since sliced bread. Right now, if the ships can't get through the shields the first roll, they won't get through it the next 200 rolls, so wtf is the point in even rolling for RF in the first place?

But, it's a "shoulda, coulda, woulda" situation. I prefer this RF over some of the others I've experienced D:

honestly i agree with you, i think shield refreshing per rf shot is most of the problem with the battle engine, its also probably the reason behind why bc fail so much against bs, like in grims post

take away the shield refresh per rf shot, calculate the battle per single unit not stack, and reduce maximum moon destruction from 100% to 99.9% so the death star destruction is still calculated on a successful mission.... if those 3 things are done, i think we will have a perfect battle system =)

Let's clear some things up:

Dexternl-
1) If you insist on using metal as your base multiplier, at least use an exchange ratio that is common. You are multiplying crystal by 2 and deut by 3. This is equivalent to an exchange rate of 3:1.5:1. As I told you in the trade thread, you need to divide metal by 3, crystal by 2, and leave deut alone for a deut standard. If for some reason you don't want your values to be compared directly to anyone else's and you want to use a metal standard, you don't simply flip the order of the exchange rate, you must take the inverse. So exchange rate of 3:2:1 equals metal standard of 1/3:1/2:1 times three equals 1-1.5-3. All your calculations are therefore off. If you had multiplied crystal by 1.5 instead of 2, they would have been accurate, but three times higher than everyone else that is using deuterium standard.

2)

* Is is true damage is just added up? (like the LL get 16.070 dmg compared to 3k of 1 PC).
If so it seems the bigger defences cause less dmg ect.... only advantage is the less RF...

Yes it is in fact true. Damage per unit is calculated by multiplying base attack by 1+(weapon tech/10) and then randomly adjusted up or down by up to 20% (or so, but I don't think it's more than 20%). This value shows as attack on the combat report. Multiply this by the number of units and you end up with the damage that stack does in the initial volley (non-RF), and then also each volley of RF against it's RF target.

3)

Same for shielding is this just a simple + + + calculation

Yes, exactly the same

4)

Also does shielding apply to all ships+defences and stuff? (like 1 big number shield = ...).
I always found it strange when you send 1LC and 1k BS the LC suddently is shielded by so much shielding points.
If thats how it works. (Not very realistic huh )

No, this is not at all how it works. A few test runs through the simulator is enough to derive how damage is applied and how shields effect it. Initial volley (non-RF) damage is determined for all attacking units and applied equally to each defending unit. Shields only protect the stack that they belong to. So in your example, if 1k LC take n damage as a stack, then they will take n/2 damage if there were also accompanied by 1k BS. Similarly, they will take half the damage per ship if there were 2k LCs instead of 1k.

5)

Don't really get RF sometimes its 18vs LL and all LL go down other times RF is 187 and all LL survive

It's simple, shielding must be defeated for every volley. If one round of RF can't get through, then none will, no matter how much RF is there.

@Urweirdsaysi after 2 page refreshes:

Attacker Attacker [0:0:0]
Weapons: 170 % Shields: 170 % Armor: 170 %
Type RIP
Number 1.000
Weapon 540.000
Shield 159.300
Armor 2.025.000
Defender Defender [0:0:0]
Weapons: 170 % Shields: 170 % Armor: 170 %
Type Light Laser.
Number 7.850.000
Weapon 224
Shield 59
Armor 270
The attacker has lost a total of 7.500.000.000 units.
The defender has lost a total of 7.850.000.000 units.
A debris field containing 3.000.000.000 units of Metal and 1.500.000.000 units of Crystal has formed in orbit around the planet.
The probability of creating a moon is : 18 %
Double knockout this aint enough for always getting a flawless.
I did like over 20 page refreshes for all tests.

5)

Don't really get RF sometimes its 18vs LL and all LL go down other times RF is 187 and all LL survive


It's simple, shielding must be defeated for every volley. If one round of RF can't get through, then none will, no matter how much RF is there.

I meant different sims the 1st round. the LL only live 1 round vs 1k rips. I had one report saying rips had 18RF vs 8mil LL and all LL got killed. yet another the rips had 187RF and all Rips got killed an all the LL survived. (both cases all rips die ofcouse)
Now if you say the dmg is flexible by 20%, would 20% really change the effective dmg that much.

but'eh thanks for all the other information ^^

btw exchange rate till now ive always sold my deut for 2 crys or 3 metal values. dunno if people do it for 1,5c

the forum shows :
3- 3.5 Metal
1.5- 2 Crystal
0.5- 1 Deuterium
I just used the values that seem to be most common. Ofcouse it will never be 100% accurate in value, even if you would do all values in deuterium values.